Some, yes not sure about all, you’d have to check in the settings?
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They definitely did.
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Updated RDS data for Nova 93.7 Perth.
Noticed groups 3A and 11A have been added. I am fairly certain these are being used for RT+ as they are only sent once, precisely at the start of a new track.
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Yes. First thing I do once settled in and driving in a different car, wrest control of frequency selection by turning AF off.
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Same here, I prefer knowing what frequency I’m on, not having the radio decide what’s best for me.
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This is one for the Sydney guys who travel North or @Radiohead, it’s been happening for a while now, (couple of years maybe), that if you have Hit 106.9 saved as a preset on your radio, North of Somersby interchange, definitely Ourimbah & North if the signals strong enough, it’ll tune to Hit 106.9, from Somersby near the Central Coast FM transmitters South & around Sydney, it’ll briefly tune to 106.9, but then it’ll swap frequencies & tune to NOVA 96.9 & then save that info into the Hit106.9 preset button, so when you get to Newcastle if you hit the preset button that still says Hit106.9, & the radio will actually tune to NOVA 96.9, I’ve had this happen on multiple car radios, so don’t know what’s happening, but it must be someone’s RDS screwing with the Hit 106.9 RDS & tuning to an AF.
Annoys me all the time, I tune to Hit 106.9 to listen to something or test the signal & hear NOVA programs, then look at the radio & go WTF, it’s now tuned to NOVA Sydney.
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Interesting, I’m hoping to do a day trip down to the Central Coast tomorrow so I’ll try that out.
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Would annoy me too.
I think I commented on this problem you experienced sometime ago.
Getting myself up to speed again with the issue.
The most likely cause is ‘bit error’
I note there is only two binary bit differences between NOVA’s PI of 2969 &
Newcastle’s 106.9 with a PI of 2069 & similar frequency.
Although neither station has a AF I suspect the almost identical PI code would be the initial trigger for the problem in conjunction with bit errors & how tuners handling of errors etc.
Do you have the authority to change the PI code for NOVA or Triple M Newcastle or the contacts who might be able to initiate the change?
I reckon one of these stations will need to change their PI code to try an see if this fixes your switching issue.
I note Triple M 102.9 has TP flag, NOVA doesn’t - but doubt there’s an issue there.
EDIT: My initial post indicated only 1 binary difference in PI code, is in fact two, sorry, too much happening here this morning.
Re 2nd digit of PI code: 0 = 0000, 9 = 1001 (else PI the same).
It’s a weird one, if happening on other tuners as well.
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And probably also only occurs when both stations are weaker and at similar strength, so not getting a clean enough signal from either to eliminate the error?
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Seems to be the problem of locations described. If it’s different by only one binary bit, then is it possible it is corrupted to spoof the wrong number?
I wonder if engineering at both stations are aware of this? Does SCA Newcastle have any on site engineering staff in this era? Surely the Sydney engineers can discuss this?
There may be a further complication that if both stations have followed the Australian convention for RDS, then one or both change to avoid this conflict, are they then creating new conflict/s?
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Hi @crankymedia. Sorry I got the number of binary bit differences wrong (see my correction above), but still a two bit error in PI code might be enough to cause the issues described.
Looking at our group’s RDS list I was wondering if Newcastle’s Triple M could consider changing their PI code to 206E?
VOX FM is also sharing their 106.9 frequency & also has a similar PI code of 206B, but given the greater distance between the stations & that VOX FM is low powered compared to either Triple FM Newy or NOVA, this proposal might be worth a try?
@mcpaton might have a view on this?
Some stations use Postcodes for their PI code. Note Rhema Newcastle has one with 2304, I was going to suggest a Newcastle Postcode PI for Triple FM 102.9 until I discovered Rhema 99.7 had chosen 2304.
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Perhaps ACMA should be the ones to allocate PI codes to ensure minimal issues? (rather than stations choosing themselves).
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I noted a similar issue a few years ago with the Mixx FM relays on the Surf Coast in Victoria. The three frequencies - 95.9 Apollo Bay, 92.7 Lorne and 106.3 Colac (the main station with the widest coverage) - all had AF to each other. However anytime it tried to tune from one of the translators to 106.3, it would instead send you to 96.3, the Christian station in Geelong which also had good signal along the coast (and RDS).
I didn’t have a way to check, but I’m presuming the PI codes were similar there (probably 3963 vs 3063) and the radio was just finding the wrong station. The idea of having AF between the three frequencies was a good one, but it was very frustrating as a listener tuned into the local pop station then finding your ears encountering the God squad.
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@RFBurns An additional thought came to mind & maybe we covered this way back. Ref 104.1 2DAY & 104.9 Triple M have similar PI codes, BUT also have AF of their own frequency & only their frequency, this maybe to prevent frequency changing like what you are experiencing with Triple M Newcastle & NOVA 969. Do you think you might have a chance of requesting or changing the RDS of both stations such that they implement adding an AF of only their frequency?
So if a frequency change is attempted by the tuner, that the tuner hopefully only looks at the frequencies in the AF list rather than randomly or continuously looking for any stronger station that might temporarily have the same PI code due to bit error. Worth a try if either station won’t change their PI code for you, but might cooperatively try my suggestion above.
Let us know how you get on with your communications with these stations & progress. Good luck.
BTW interesting reading the similar experience by @tamago_otoko
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If the AF flag is not set, then adding the local frequency to the AF list should be irrelevant.
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@mcpaton Out of curiosity re @RFBurns reported problem; Does 2DAY & Triple M have the AF flag set? Only having access to ‘RDS Spy’ software at the receiver end, all I can tell is that both 2DAY & 2MMM have their frequencies in the AF List under ‘Method A’ as a ‘Filler’.
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I’ll just answer a few questions in the one post without quoting.
@ozbark it’s Hit Newcastle not Triple M but you have the frequency correct of 106.9.
You’re probably right about the PI code being very close & I’m not sure how the receivers look at & use all the data & even if they do it to the RDS standards or not, but the frequencies aren’t even close at 106.9 & 96.9, so you’d think that even if the receiver couldn’t find the PI code it has stored (because the station could’ve changed it?), then it would still look at the frequency data & tune to that frequency, not go looking through the entire band to find the PI code or one that’s similar?
I don’t have access to the Nova or SCA or ARN for that matter RDS, they are fully managed by the networks/stations themselves or an external company, especially if they are running Traffic on the RDS.
I can probably talk to the NOVA tech’s, but don’t know if SCA have a local Newcastle tech at the moment, about 6 months ago they were looking for a new one (I was thinking about applying for it), but it went advertised for months with no takers & was withdrawn after a few months but I don’t know if they found anyone or just gave up?
It’s unlikely NOVA would change their PI code, they are actually benefiting from the problem.
As for using the studio post code for the PI, I guess you could, there is no standard in Australia, even though CRA made one, it’s still every man for himself as far as RDS PI codes are concerned, the USA get their PI codes from a calculation made off their FCC call-sign, so no 2 will ever be the same, don’t know why we can’t do that here?
Rhema FM Newcastle is at Warabrook (Newcastle Western Suburb), Hit & Triple M are in the Newcastle CBD so Hit could use postcode 2300, but then what would Triple M use, NEW FM are at Sandgate & have the same post code as Warabook so can’t use that if Rhema are using it.
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All you can do (& should do) is communicate with the station’s tech’s & explain the issue & possible cause. It is likely that the issue is being experienced by others, but apathy being what it is, no one else or few bothering to report it.
With increasing use of RDS in Australia, it now seams like there should be consideration for a body like ACMA to provide guidance or regulation to PI usage to avoid the issues several broadcasters & listeners are experiencing.
Talk to them, nothing lost in trying.
For SCA, try communicating with @mcpaton here or call their head of radio
engineering on the phone.
If it’s working there, yes we could or should be adopting it here.
I found it interesting that SBSFM changed from a standard nationwide PI code to using the CRA model, re individual PI codes.
Could be creating more issues re PI Postcodes of 2300 vs 2304. Again only one bit difference. 0000 = 0, 0100 = 4 re Hit 106.9 & Rhema 99.7
Yes sorry. I had a horrible morning & sleep deprivation.
No they’re not in frequency magnitude & I think it’s a PI code issue rather than some weird tuner frequency/memory issue. I was only highlighting a pattern of: 106.9 vs 96.9 & where 10 is next digit above 9. Probably best forgotten.
BTW you may wish to also enquire with SCA about the AF discussion above, if you follow it okay.
Good luck with it all.
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I was down on the Central Coast today and tested the Hit-Nova issue, my car has the Mazda MZD Connect system, so “presets” in that are a list of “favourites”.
On 2 out of 5 occasions around the Kariong - Somersby area, selecting Hit106.9 from my list of favourites would result in the radio tuning to Nova 96.9 with their RDS showing as how you’ve described…. But on the other 3 occasions it stayed on a weak Hit106.9 signal…. It didn’t change Hit showing in my list of favourites though.
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@ozbark you could start an RDS round table among engineers and see what takers you get?
Do it on Zoom etc, have a clear, achieved agenda of ‘easy wins’ and go from there.
You can’t expect to solve everything on the first meeting, perhaps a small one such as this 106.9/96.9 problem.
@Radiohead great practical report, interesting read.
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