Thought it would be a good idea to start a new thread for any further discussion of the war between Israel and Gaza.
Last post from the federal politics thread:
I did find it mildly amusing when, just after the start of the war, I saw ‘Queers for Palestine’ come up on Insta. Nothing wrong with being pro-Palestine, obviously, but given Hamas’ attitude towards queer rights it did make me raise an eyebrow. Reminded me of a line from a Little Britain sketch about “Gay Nation of Islam”. Never thought that would become real (in a fashion)!
It’s the same in the UK, and has been for a long time. The National Education Union is probably the worst for that. The head, a guy named Daniel Kebede, is constantly sounding off about Palestine and Ukraine (he is extremely anti-NATO and wants Ukraine to essentially submit to Russia). I think it’s because a lot of activists worldwide seem to think they now need to be activists for everything, rather than just one or two causes.
What’s difficult to understand? 2 completely different issues, It is possible to disagree on one and agree on the other.
Many conservatives would side with the Arab view on lgbt issues, should they all be pro-Palestine?
Social progressives will always drift towards the egalitarian and humanitarian side of an issue or conflict. Sometimes it is disputed which side is which. But on lgbt issues and Israel-Palestine the choice is obvious.
Im not for forcing one issue and comparing LBGT and Israel-Palestine as the two don’t really compare in my view. Most people see things black and white , wrong and right, as such as LGBT (as that is more of a religious/moral issue) but the Israel-Palestine issue is not so clear cut, considering that there are faults on both side from what I understand. I will have to draw my own conclusion on what the facts are not on forum opinions though.
The western embrace of the Palestinians (and the wider “Islamic lands” claim) never made sense to me as the Islamic world is largely against everything that the (white) western left supposedly stand for. But then, they refuse to admit that socialism is as dead an economic ideology as Georgism or Douglas social credit theory. Having to admit that decades of dedication, advocation and activism has been for nothing likely would hurt too much and failure is a very hard thing for a human to admit.
Comes across as a double standard to me, especially for those who support the abolition of Israel altogether (which seems to be a large number of the activists). If a hypothetical future Palestinian state would protect LGBT and minority rights, I’d be all for it (especially if part of a two-state solution).
But all the evidence suggests that is unrealistic (based on the existing Palestinian Authority and on how allied states treat these issues) that a Palestinian state would be theocratic and discriminatory against the LGBT community and other minorities.
Israel is far from perfect and they have gone overboard with their response in Gaza but Hamas is using Gaza’s population as a human shield and that act of cowardice is as much of a contributor to this catastrophe and deserves just as much condemnation.
Most conservatives in this country, even the ones that are homophobic and transphobic, are still far more tolerant and accepting than the likes of conservatives in Iran and Saudi Arabia (who call for outright execution).
You’re right, it is pretty obvious to me. I support the side that acts to protect LGBT rights and doesn’t treat homosexuality as a sin/taboo. The current Palestinian movement does not adhere to these principles. I’d totally get behind a secular Palestinian state but that is not what is being pushed for by the activists.
… As opposed to Israel, who indiscriminately kill anyone by the tens of thousands whether they are gay or straight.
Your comment just goes to show how irrelevant the lgbt debate is to statehood, unless you are also calling for the abolition on Saudi Arabia and Iran too.
This just shows how effective pink washing is. You’re wiling to overlook a genocidal apartheid regime that openly engages in war crimes, illegal settlements, collective punishment, and modern colonialism just because of the lgbt rights?
That’s on Hamas as much as anyone, they are the cowards using Palestinian civilians in Gaza as human shields. They have embedded themselves into Gaza like a metastatic cancer and made it very challenging to distinguish the innocent civilians from themselves.
And Egypt has to take some blame too for the death toll, they could easily open their border but are quite happy to trap the Palestinian civilians as that’s “not their problem”.
I would happily support that, they are both appalling theocratic regimes with terrible attitudes to minorities, women and the LGBT community.
And you’re willing to overlook the actions of a terrorist organisation that slaughters families in their homes on the basis of their faith?
Edit: I withdraw the aforementioned remark and sincerely apologise to MrJ, this was a remark made in the heat of the conversation and given time to reflect I regret how I have worded it.
Israel has its issues and has certainly acted in bad faith at times (especially with the settlements in the West Bank/Gaza) but the downplaying of the role of Hamas in triggering this conflict from progressives is just plain wrong.
Israel might not have the moral high ground either but the Palestinians and their supporters need to get their own house in order too and that is what I find hypocritical about this.
To put my case in point:
The Jews have just as much right to live in peace in the Holy Land as the Palestinians, bear in mind they are the descendants of those who were forced into exile by Islamic colonisers in the first place. Or is there a time limit on when colonisers are no longer colonisers?
No. That is an outrageous and offensive assertion. I condemn both, and two wrongs do not make a right. You, on the other hand are actively defending war crimes.
Israel’s human shields excuse is not recognised in the Geneva convention, and for good reason. And there is definitely no room for interpretation when it comes to targeting hospitals, refuge camps, humanitarian corridors, journalists and aid convoys.
It wasn’t clear from your previous comments as you had not yet shown any condemnation of Hamas, I appreciate you clearing that up though and do apologise sincerely for any offense taken.
While you had also jumped to an erroneous conclusion that I was condoning/defending war crimes and genocide and I admit that did rub me up the wrong way, it does not excuse my response and once again I reiterate my apology.
While I take offense to that assertion, and I have made it quite clear that I do not support the excesses of Israel’s response, I won’t push the issue as this has blown up into something I was hoping to avoid. We’ve provoked each other a bit (not for the first time either) and continuing along this line isn’t going to help anything as we’re both pretty entrenched in our views.
I think despite our different views on who is responsible for the conflict this is one thing we can agree on. The whole damn situation is a tragedy and it has gotten well and truly out of hand with far too much suffering on both sides.
After the goons of the Shoebridgeist/Rhiannonist sect stormed the stage of Carols by Candlelight in Melbourne, it is time for the Australian mainstream to show the Greens politicians and activists that we are free of any delusions that they are nice or even rational.
Also, their nonsense pacifism would only invite more 1994 Rwanda events but with no backup of sending in the Marines.
Bill, Freda and Lee Brown were not exercising “freedom of speech”, they were giving support, aid and comfort to a known and declared enemy of their country and people. By an objective measure, that is treason.
Lee has never apologised for her and her parents’ beliefs or admitted that they were always wrong, regardless of what good acts individual communists might have done.
A lot of the Greens supporters and Palestinian activists in this country aren’t malicious in my view, and many genuinely mean well, but they are very naive and do not do enough to condemn and separate themselves from those who are sympathetic to Hamas and their goals and have anti-Semitic views.
Reflecting on my original post yesterday, I was disappointed that what was a genuine open minded question solicited what I took as a hostile and belittling response. However, it doesn’t excuse one of my subsequent remarks and I reiterate my apology for that.
Neo-Nazi infiltration and the lack of condemnation from the organisers discredited the 2020-21 lockdown protests and tarnished their image (quite rightly), I don’t see why we shouldn’t hold other protest movements to the same standard.
A big problem with discourse is that Shoebridge, Bandt et al talk about peace without any mention of defunding Hamas, let alone permanently disarming Hamas and all other militia groups that are a grave threat to everyone who is not them. Incredible but not surprising.
“Collective punishment” is not what is happening. If fools like MrJ were around in WWII we would have been pressured to agree to a ceasefire with the Axis by the end of 1943 - before Normandy! - purely because German and Japanese civilians were being killed by Allied bombing.
Claiming "indiscriminate bombing of [insert heart strings pulling claim] is also strange since bombing hospitals and other specific targets is very discriminate.
The Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines genocide as “acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.” There are between 15 and 19 million Jews in the world, depending on how the word “Jew” is defined. Of these, 7.4 million live in Israel. To call for the destruction of a state where between 40 and 50% of all the Jews in the world live seems to me to be calling for acts intended to destroy, in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. In other words, to be calling for genocide against the Jews.
I might also observe that those who advocate the destruction of a sovereign state and 7.4 million of its inhabitants have no grounds for complaint about the means by which that state chooses to defend itself against that threat. Particularly since, the last time genocide was attempted against the Jews, by the Nazis, the then Palestinian leader, Amin al-Husseyni, was an enthusiastic supporter of that attempt.
Hey Adam Bandt, let me translate for you what Annalena Baerbock, Germany’s Greens foreign minister, says: “Israel has the right, indeed the duty, under international law, to defend itself against the Hamas terror. Standing up for Israel’s security also means, seeing the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza. Every civilian life is of equal worth.”
That is a perfectly accurate and reasonable thing to say. It does not falsely equate Israel’s defensive measures with the murderous terrorism of Hamas. It does not falsely accuse Israel of war crimes. It does not falsely blame Israel for the suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza. You could have said the same things, were you not being held hostage by the Trotskyist-Islamist wing of your own party.
Qantas cabin crew have been slammed for their antics on board a flight to Hobart after workers allegedly all served passengers wearing Palestinian flag pins, with one man telling Sky News that he felt “intimidated” by the “divisive” political statement.
Sky News reporter Caroline Marcus revealed on Wednesday night that a group of QantasLink workers donned the Palestinian flags while serving passengers on a December 20 flight from Melbourne.
So the flight attendant at the centre of this is trying to attack the person who reported her, seems like she is trying to whip up a mob against this person from what she has written.
If you’re going to make such a statement, at least have the guts to stand by it and take responsibility for your own actions, especially when you are bringing your employer into disrepute (and Qantas has been rather generous so far in their response). Don’t blame the person who you caused distress too as a result of your actions.
I get that the Palestine flag is viewed as a symbol of hope and peace for the Palestinian movement, but to a lot of Jewish people and those with ties to Israel, it’s a symbol of hate and terror.
One would not accept say a flight attendant wearing say, the Confederate flag, why is this acceptable?
Likewise, were it the Israeli flag they were wearing, I would also say that’s equally unacceptable as there’s a decent chance of someone with Palestinian ties on a given flight and they too do not deserve to be confronted with a symbol that is associated with suffering to them.
The problem is that there are no groups with any power in the Palestinian Territories willing to accept the permanency and legitimacy of Israel as a Jewish State. Both the “Nakba” propaganda which deliberately leaves out why they were not allowed to return, and the “Israeli apartheid” campaign is refusal to accept this. Unfortunately, that acceptance is a needed pre-condition for any settlement.
Did you listen in your history class? Clearly not… Where do u think all the palestinians in the current israeli land went, do u think they just disapeared into thin air? No they were displaced from their homes