Digital TV Technical Discussion

I bought a 2nd smaller telly last weekend (Hisense 40 inch A4G) and this weekend I’ve had it in my loungeroom (normally sits in the bedroom)… It’s very light so it’s easy to move around.

So I did some estimations on lags between the different signals of metro and regional broadcasters that are receivable in my area (Sydney, Newcastle/Sugarloaf, Lake Macquarie/Belmont North and Central Coast/Forresters Beach).

As for ABC and SBS there was very little difference time wise between the 4 sets of signals.

It gets a bit more interesting with the commercial broadcasters however.

Seven Network
VHF 6 Artarmon - has the ‘earliest’ signal
UHF 42 Central Coast - probably about 0.3 secs behind

Nine Network and 10 Network have very similar results to Seven’s.

Prime 7
Interestingly, all of UHF 35 (Newcastle), UHF 32 (Belmont North) and UHF 46 (Central Coast) looked to be almost perfectly in sync.

The other interesting fact is that all Prime7 signals are now only about 0.5 behind Artarmon… Prime used to the slowest by a long way (as much as 23 seconds when their playout was in Canberra, this dropped to about 5 seconds when they first moved to Media Hub).

They appear to have a smaller lag than even 9NBN, despite the latter also being O&O and also based at NPC.

9NBN

Was about 1 second behind Artarmon. All Newcastle, Belmont North and Central Coast signals were pretty much in sync.

WIN / 10

Newcastle about 6 seconds behind Artarmon, so is now the slowest of the regionals.

The interesting thing for me was that their Central Coast feed was slightly ahead of Belmont North, which was about another 0.7 second behind Newcastle. I had assumed both Central Coast and Belmont North were being fed off air from Newcastle.

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Might be a stupid question but would how far away you are from the transmitter affect these timings?

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Timing isn’t affected on the distances involved. Waves travel at the speed of light.

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I watched a bit of the AFL Grand Final with a friend over FaceTime. He was in regional Victoria and Prime7 on his end was actually slightly ahead of Seven’s broadcast on my TV in Melbourne. Even with the presumed delay over FaceTime I was still hearing commentary on his end slightly ahead of my TV.

That said, My main antenna is currently on the Melbourne CBD/South Yarra UHF SFN and not Mt Dandenong which might have contributed to the delay on my end.

But lines up with your observations in NSW on Prime7 being much more improved than it was when it was in Canberra.

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Artarmon = 105 km
Forresters Beach = 53 km
Sugarloaf = 17 km
Belmont North = 6 km

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Interesting analysis. For me, all 3 commercial stations are significantly delayed on terrestrial - to the point where sometimes the metro IPTV stream equivalent is in sync with the local station.

For example, GWN7’s service would travel from MediaHub to Optus Belrose, beam up to Optus 10 satellite, then down to my local transmitter site. Decoded and decrypted, then reencoded to MPEG-2, then beamed to my roof antenna. That whole process delays it by 15 odd seconds. I can watch it via satellite instead of terrestrial for comparison which shows a delay of around 4 seconds. So the bulk of the delay, it seems, is down to the ingestion at Optus’ end of the chain.

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Surprising that the remote broadcasters hadn’t moved to MPEG-4 to remove the additional step

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Timing is affected between transmitter sites but it’s in the micro or milliseconds, so transmitters have to have timing allowed for in settings for SFN sites, but for the human eye/brain it’s too short of time for someone to notice when comparing channels.

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What @Radiohead found is about what I would expect, (9NBN excepted), they use a different type of headend at NPC to what Nine do, so it will give different results, timing won’t be lined up between 9 Artarmon & 9NBN Newcastle.
I would’ve expected 9NBN Central Coast might differ from Newcastle a bit more than said, as it’s actually different programming so doesn’t run the exact same path as Newcastle, also the Newcastle SFN sites are not all fed from Mt Sugarloaf, some are microwave fed & others are fibre fed, (Belmont North is off air fed from Mt Sugarloaf), 9NBN did have some timing issues because of this, & TXA Engineering have been helping them overcome this problem, don’t know if it’s solved totally yet though?

WIN Newcastle is probably fed via a DDA Microwave link? Mt Sugarloaf to the best of my knowledge then feeds all the translator sites, but Forresters Beach is now fed off a DDA Microwave link, not off air from Mt Sugarloaf, this changed after WIN took over from SCA.

Prime7 Central Coast are all fed from DDA microwave links, I think Mt Sugarloaf is too, but not sure how the Newcastle SFN sites are fed, Belmont North is off air from Mt Sugarloaf.

9NBN use TPG links (new & legacy Soul Pattinson Telecom’s), fibre & microwave.

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Soul Pattinson - many seem to get this confused.

They owned NBN before selling out to PBL Media (now Nine Entertainment).

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I’ve changed the spelling, but yes I know who they are, & that they owned NBN prior to Nine Entertainment, SP Telecom are now part of TPG.
SPT was run out of the NBN Newcastle studios for a while before being bought out by TPG.

Soul Pattinson Telecom (or SPT as it was for a while), were the same company as behind Soul Pattinson Chemist Group, Washington H Soul Pattinson.

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And the same TPG includes Mr Bruce Gordon as a minority shareholder.

This might not be quite the right spot for this, but meh I dont care :wink:

I’m having issues with signal quality with ABC and Prime7 - terrible picture breakup that is becoming incredibly frustrating and I’m keen to see what I can do to fix it. I’m running a HDHomeRun and one of those indoor boosters you can get from Bunnings (the tuner in the HDHR isnt the most robust I’ve found)

Some days are better then others - ABC in particular was rock solid over winter (Prime less so) but both are starting to degrade badly to the point that the HDHR cant tune any of the channels

Any Ideas?

Service Network Owner Freq(MHz) Channel Polarisation Pat Licence No
ABC ABC 620.5 41 H DA 1159766
SBS SBS 613.5 40 H DA 1159768
NEN Prime 627.5 42 H DA 1159836
NBN NBN 634.5 43 H DA 1160229
NRN Southern Cross Austereo 641.5 44 H DA 1159839

Can you try for Mt Dowe (Upper Namoi) where you are?

You might just get a better signal from there maybe…

Options could include changes to antenna, connections and amplifier. Easiest would be to check or replace the cabling. Next would be a new and/or more powerful amplifier - possibly with a variable boost.

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Not from where I’m at unfortunately

That was my next thought - any suggestions?

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I can recommend

20 dB gain - variable

https://www.jaycar.com.au/amplifier-20db-gain-plug-in-4g-lte-filter/p/LT3289?gclid=CjwKCAjw2P-KBhByEiwADBYWCnLi8tigsqETpwzaOMeNjzkjJO411ObYMTf3GPuqPBMyzHzY5-UufRoCSOAQAvD_BwE

Bunning have this which is 30dB gain variable might be suitable

https://www.bunnings.com.au/antsig-indoor-antenna-amplifier-with-separate-vhf-uhf-gain-control_p4360389

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This is what I’m currently running

Assuming it is to maximum boost? Any difference if the boost is lower?

Its up fairly well full way (maybe 7/8ths), anything below about half and all channels drop out on occasion

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