US Politics

Well considering how close the election was and Donald Trumps acceptance speech was at 3am local time in New York I don’t think it’s that crazy that Hilary held back to 10.30am. She actually exposed her concession speech to a larger audience by doing it in the morning, nobody would have seen it if she did it at 4 or 5am on election night.

Bear in mind that there were people who’d been at her party since 6pm. In my mind, it’d make sense to recognise hardcore Dems supporters, many of whom supported Bernie Sanders in the primaries.

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I thought I heard that a lot of them had left by then already. It was 3am and they had lost afterall. Most were probably to upset to hang around that late.

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I wonder if the election only involved Trump and Clinton being the candidates, would Clinton have scraped through? Apparently 4.6% voted for other candidates like Gary Johnson and Jill Stein.

Clinton actually got more votes than Trump. If there was only two candidates Clinton may have got more votes and still lost.

Looks as though the normal people with brains in the north east and west coast actually voted with their heads and the rest of the great unwashed Neanderthals voted for a fuckwit

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Oh so you understand German?

Being in Germany at the moment, I can confirm the country’s mood just dropped a few notches. Brexit was bad, but we now have someone who sees NATO as irrelevant and Putin as a good guy in the White House. For Europe, I think Merkel’s sentiments hit the mark quite well.

Actually, Trump is seeking to strengthen NATO - having all members making full contributions, meeting their % targets on defence spending.

Further, I think it is fantastic that the US administration will now not be provoking Russia and trotting out their cartoon villain image of Putin. Why shouldn’t the US improve relations with Russia? It is in everyone’s interests.

That you think Merkel speaks on behalf of Europe is very telling. She speaks only on behalf of Germany. Merkel, and her shambolic policy of allowing hundreds of thousands of economic migrants to walk into Germany has created much instability, ultimately lead to the UK voting to leave the EU, and I have no doubt, increased anxiety which has lead to the Trump victory.

Further, Brexit is not bad. Brexit is literally the UK leaving the European Union, which ultimately seeks to create a political union. No one wants the UK and France to be the same country. This hasn’t been stated clearly enough to ordinary people - and no surprise, the vote to leave would have been 95%. Also, the vote to leave has proved to not be bad economically either, with the UK continuing to have robust growth.

Lastly, Germany is the last country to lecture another on human values. Germany has actually been the most fucked country in the world for more than a century, and has lead to more human deaths than any other country on earth.

By making each country pay their contributions, he is inadvertently remilitarising Europe.

Europe was never supposed to meet its contribution by design, because America wanted it that way. In doing so, they prevented further wars between powers in Europe, fostered greater and stronger relationships between European societies, and provided super neat bargaining power for American trade. America has benefitted immensely from this arrangement geopolitically and economically, but Trump doesn’t think about this arrangement with any nuance. To him, it’s just another scapegoat to rile up his base. You’ve fallen for it. It’s all loud angry whinging by a frustrated and ill-informed electorate with no deeper consideration of the inner workings of policy and international relations.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:400, topic:1886”]
Why shouldn’t the US improve relations with Russia? It is in everyone’s interests.
[/quote] It’s only in everyone’s interests if the improved relations are NOT on Putin’s terms. The Russians hacked the Democrats and supported Trump. The campaign manager of Trump’s campaign has close ties to Russian industry. This isn’t a conspiracy, this is really happening.

And Putin will walk all over Trump like there’s no tomorrow. There’s a pipeline in the Middle East which delivers the Europeans their oil. If Putin gets that, and it’s likely he will if he gets his way in Syria, virtually every economical means of importing oil into Europe will be controlled by the Russians. Would you be able to tell me what would happen if a power hungry autocrat can charge whatever he wants for a vital economic resource to 700 million people? Economic growth? Political stability? Peace on earth?

Again, the attitude on continental Europe (and indeed among young Britons) is very different. I know you obviously don’t have a firm grasp on understanding other cultures, but please don’t assume Merkel is merely being arrogant. The millennial generation by and large see themselves as Europeans first and Germans or Italians second. I’ve even talked to young Brits who consider themselves more European than British.

A lot of foreigners don’t immediately understand this, so I doubt someone who lives in the US or Australia even knows about this. It’s like me saying I’m more of an Australian than a Queenslander.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:400, topic:1886”]
Lastly, Germany is the last country to lecture another on human values. Germany has actually been the most fucked country in the world for more than a century, and has lead to more human deaths than any other country on earth.
[/quote]That’s an alarming comment. Again, you show very little education on how reality works. Sure, German history is awful. So was American slavery. So was Stalin’s USSR. British colonialization of Australia and Africa has some dark chapters. And you’ve lost your right to lecture, because Australia had the stolen generation.

Modern day Germany has as equal a right as any country to comment on these sorts of affairs.

Side note: if you were to say what you just said to an actual German, you’d be clocked over the head so hard and so quickly.

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You’ve godwin’ed the argument by referencing the nazis. I’m still confused about Mr Trump’s policy on muslim immigration, one day they’re banned, next day all references removed from his website, the he brings up the database plan again…confusing (and possibly unconstitutional)

So many cliches, so much misinformed opinion, so much left-wing “millennial” non-sense and verbatim liberal-media repetition.

Actually, you’ve fallen for it - you’ve fallen for the liberal media cliches about Trump and his supporters. Trump supporters are not loud and angry (cf. noisy protests on the street about the democratic process delivering an unexpected result). They’re not ill-informed (imagine having the arrogrance to say this about half the American electorate). Fact is, most people with a college education, voted for Trump.

As to the policy, it’s simply about making sure each member nation is pulling their weight.

And we should be very glad that Americans have had access to information which has allowed them to make an informed choice.

Second part of your statement is purely hypothetical rhetoric.

Actually, I have a very firm grasp on understanding other cultures, thank you. Unlike you, I am actually of European background, and not simply gallivanting about European capitals on a working holiday like every other Australian bogan that thinks they’re cultured does.

My comment was more about your arrogance in assuming Merkel speaks for Europe, rather than her thinking she does.

You’ve confused my understanding with other cultures, which encapsulates understanding about all demographics, with your myopic understanding of one younger demographic.

I am very well aware that young Brits, and a majority of Londoners voted to remain in the EU. This is primarily because Nigel Farage and others they see as undesirable support that cause, therefore the opposite cause must be supported. All about virtue signalling. Talk to them on the facts, on why, for example, the UK should politically be the same country as France or Slovenia, and they’re stunned mullets.

Again, sorry, but I am of more European background than you. We should catch up once you’re back from your working holiday.

But, to your point, a Briton can say they are European, and consider themselves a European, without being in the European Union.

Totally, that’s why it’s always pissed me off when countries like the United States lecture others, like Russia, on values. Look to your own backyard and the violence, poverty and state murder of criminals first.

Amusing - you support this, yet if I said that “Australia did bad things in removing Indigenous Australians from their families, and if you said that to anyone in Australia they would clock you over the head, therefore don’t say it”, you would be the first to shriek about that. About the playing down of history, about the intemperance of Australians to accept their history without resorting to violence.

As with all left-wing millienials, all over the shop and completely hypocritical.

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Ditto with all your alt-right clichés. Liberal media is a laughable phrase and one of the hollowest terms I’ve heard.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
Trump supporters are not loud and angry (snip) They’re not ill-informed
[/quote]I suppose it’s a matter of perspective. By definition, they educate themselves well in certain political aspects. They read lots of websites and blogs which contain heaps of political analysis and opinions.

But these sites aren’t imparting “good” information. Let’s assume there’s an objective truth to certain arguments - manmade carbon dioxide emissions are warming the earth. A progressive will say we need to invest in getting CO2 production under control using Government. A traditional conservative will argue to keep government out of it, allow consumers to change their ways freely to incentivise a switch away from pollutants. The new, alternative conservative, simply prays away climate change as, to quote Trump, a Chinese conspiracy. This isn’t engaging with the issue, this is inventing a new reality. That is misinformation, and by extension, the vast majority of Trump’s supporters are sadly ill-informed by sticking with outlets which only spread this misinformation.

Some media outlets aren’t liberal because they states climate change to be an objective fact. They’re doing their job of calling a spade a spade.

Intelligence in a particular field does not equal political intelligence. Ben Carson, who believes the Pyramids stored grain and are hollow, is a fantastic example, although you might disagree.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
As to the policy, it’s simply about making sure each member nation is pulling their weight.
[/quote] You failed to engage with my point about America not wanting Europe to remilitarise on any substantiative level, which is irritating, because I actually want to hear what you think about that concept.

If you want to read further about what I mean by this, google Hegemonic Peace Theory.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
And we should be very glad that Americans have had access to information which has allowed them to make an informed choice.
[/quote]Again, access to information on the internet is not necessarily a great thing. On some levels it can be very easily manipulated (you’ll argue I’m misinformed by whatever outlets I consume, I’ll argue that back at you).

As an example, Trump retweeted a video of Michael Moore talking about angry white voters voting this election because they’ve fallen on hard times. Trump praised Moore’s “endorsement”. What the average viewer doesn’t realise is that this clip was manipulated because it purposefully cut out the section where Moore warned these voters that electing a demagogue is not the right way to go about smashing the establishment.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
Second part of your statement is purely hypothetical rhetoric.
[/quote]And that there was a complete unwillingness to engage on my argument on a meaningful level. Just because you haven’t heard about what I’m talking about, does not make it “hypothetical”. It means you haven’t heard about it, plain and simple. [quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
Totally, that’s why it’s always pissed me off when countries like the United States lecture others, like Russia, on values. Look to your own backyard and the violence, poverty and state murder of criminals first.
[/quote]America is a world superpower. It’s the world’s sole hegemon and has been a large part of the reason there has been a sustained peace in our time.

Furthermore, what is this “lecturing” bullshit? Is a statement by an American president or Russian president that shocking to you? Countries can say what they want; how much attention what they say depends on how influential they are.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
Amusing - you support this, yet if I said that “Australia did bad things in removing Indigenous Australians from their families, and if you said that to anyone in Australia they would clock you over the head, therefore don’t say it”, you would be the first to shriek about that.
[/quote]No, you’re putting words in my mouth.

I would say, “but I’m not carrying out those atrocities nor supporting them in any fashion, therefore your argument is a strawman and I’m qualified to speak.”

That’s the same with Germany. The Holocaust happened 70 years ago and the country’s undergone intense de-Nazification since then. Making an argument that historical atrocities perpetrated by a group must silence any criticism from said group is a really nice way of dodging an argument. [quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
I am very well aware that young Brits, and a majority of Londoners voted to remain in the EU.
[/quote] No, they didn’t just vote to remain based on economic and political reasons though, they voted because of a shared cultural identity.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
Talk to them on the facts, on why, for example, the UK should politically be the same country as France or Slovenia, and they’re stunned mullets.
[/quote]They aren’t? They’re all part of the same supranational structure of the European Union.

One can argue the differences in culture between the South and the North of the US warrants the United States being split in two.

[quote=“Firetorch, post:403, topic:1886”]
We should catch up once you’re back from your working holiday.
[/quote]I’m actually enjoying this discussion. Like I said, my impression is informed by cultural contact. There’s a possibility it isn’t indicative of the whole of European society, but certainly among the youth there is a feeling of cohesiveness that perhaps isn’t recognised by all.

And I’d love to.

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Imagine a debate without name-calling.

One can only dream

Let’s put it this way, I’ve seen many many Trump supporters you’d call normal, enough of this stereotypical redneck crap. People are fed up with politicians and society because there views cannot be heard without people calling them ‘rude’. Donald Trump has been their only chance in recent times who shares the same views and is successful enough to get a nomination. I say good on him and all his supporters for beating the odds and opinion polls.

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An outstanding victory for Donald Trump. Well done. A great moment in history. I am confident he will go down as one of the greats and will bring much needed change. Will be much better than Obama or what Clinton would have been considering the fact the senate & house is also Republican.

Now watch all of the media spy leftist have a go at me for having an opinion :joy::joy::joy:

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I really hope you are right but already the repercussions of his actions and words have led to the most hostile reception in a president I have ever seen. Riots occurring is not exactly how you want to start…

There’s a video on social media that shows a women, in public, protesting about Trump - she pulls down her pants and craps then picks it up and smothers it on a poster of Trump. Seriously…

He hasn’t even been innagurated yet - he was elected by the public, everyone should just give him a fucking chance and respect the outcome of the election as Clinton and Obama have done. If these protesters really loved their country, they would respect the outcome of the election, unify and give the bloke a go.

I for one respect the bloke, as I respect anyone who becomes President or even PM, it is a huge feat. Particularly Trump but, he stood firm on his views and didn’t succum to media pressures.

Trump will have a lot of people around him, the likes of Rudy Guiliani, Newt Gingrich & Mike Huckabe, I am confident he will succeed.

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I totally agree. But obviously the comments that he has said have really taken offence to some people. That is the point. He started off on the wrong foot before he even started. Perhaps Hillary would have as well, but he has probably started 10 times further back than she would have. But I agree he has to be given a fair go.

Well perhaps he didn’t with media pressure but he surely has backflipped. Apparently his twitter account has been passed onto someone else and he isn’t allowed to use it anymore. So there must be some pressure somewhere and he has ‘succumb’ to it. He did a very big backflip on the whole race thing so he hasn’t really stood ‘firm’ on his views. I look forward to seeing how many of his views are actually those that he wants to do or whether it was just a way to get attention. But we will see come January.

Edit: as for the respect stuff. I totally disagree you cant just expect to be given respect because you are of authority you need to earn it. That is a very old fashioned philosophy that doesnt have any merit in our current society.

Or whether he just said anything that would get him elected and will back down now. It has been noted that some of his extreme plans pitched during the election have already been removed from his website since then.

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