Federal Politics

[turdall]

I doubt Malcolm Turnbull would be for this but this would probably help the polls and get some of those Pauline supporters back to the Coalition. Changes to the Race Discrimination Act are being proposed. With a bit more leniency. I don’t see it being that big of an issue with words like insult, offend and humiliate being cut for the word harass. It is to provide protection for journalists, artists and academics.

I can understand the proposed changes and obviously the media would make it a bigger deal than it really is but would lead to the public that are far right maybe swinging back to the Coalition.

https://tenplay.com.au/channel-ten/the-project/top-stories-february-2017/let-s-18c-what-happens

[pelican]

@tv_watcher

Halal certification on products.

You do realise that a certification changes the product by little to no degree, right?

I think we’ve lost the ability to civilisation when we’re quibbling about useless shit like this when there are bigger issues to worry about. Social mobility, economic inequality, poverty and domestic violence: why’s Pauline so quiet on these issues? Because they’re difficult issues which require complex solutions, and Pauline doesn’t have the guts to fight and die on those hills.

[AustralianAerial]

@pelican

Social mobility, economic inequality, poverty and domestic violence: why’s Pauline so quiet on these issues? Because they’re difficult issues which require complex solutions, and Pauline doesn’t have the guts to fight and die on those hills.

And arguably these effect some of One Nation’s support base more than a sticker on a container of Vegemite.

This is also something the major parties should be looking at more closely, but it seems it’ll take a miracle before common sense overrules policy

[TV-ACT]

@AustralianAerial

…also something the major parties should be looking at more closely, but it seems it’ll take a miracle before common sense overrules policy

(Unfortunately) I’d say …overrules idiology (and narrow self interest).

[Firetorch]

@turdall

Oh… So is there something wrong with a right winged politician being culturally aware and accepting? I get very frustrated with people mentioning halal. Its not a new thing and in many countries halal certified food has been around for decades. What is the big issue? That someone believes something that is religiously different to the majority of Australians? Does halal affect those people? No.

I totally don’t agree with the over the top assessment of Malcolm as halalmal (actual lol!). However stuff like that Muslim dinner last year totally gets under most people’s skins - and if people don’t believe that, they shouldn’t be talking politics as they don’t have their finger on the pulse.

Further, I’ve never spent one second thinking about whether my food is halal certified or not. However, the majority of Australians, if they were asked to turn their mind specifically to it, would not accept corporations passing on costs of certification to consumers, for a religious blessing to be given to food. It is so wholely contrary to Australian beliefs. And I don’t see why Australians should be lining the pockets of these certifiers - as exposed by 7:30 last year.

Most crucially, the alt-left can’t get stroppy in defending Australians paying for halal certifications because it is really important to Muslim Australians, but then get shitty when Christian Australians say they believe marriage should be between a man and a woman. You can’t select which religious hocus pocus you want to support, based on the fact you want to totally be on the opposite side to evil right wing monsters.

@pelican

I think we’ve lost the ability to civilisation when we’re quibbling about useless shit like this when there are bigger issues to worry about.

Actually, most people would argue they’re protecting modern western civilisation in rejecting nonsense like this.

@pelican

Social mobility,

Free education for all Australians, and access to tertiary institutions for all Australians.

@pelican

economic inequality,

Decades old welfare system.

@pelican

poverty

Welfare, plus support for charity and church groups which specifically target those in poverty.

@pelican

domestic violence

Been a crime for years. Why randomly pull this crime out of the bag? If you suffer from domestic violence, ring the police. They’re not mindreaders. They don’t find out about murders, assaults, theft or fraud unless they’re tipped off in some way too that something has happened. Basically, strong independent Australian women can, and always will, decide for themselves when they want to report an incident to the Police, and they don’t need left-wing straight/cisgender white men make personal political mileage out of them.

[Firetorch]

@turdall

I don’t see it being that big of an issue with words like insult, offend and humiliate being cut for the word harass.

It is a totally proportionate and common sense amendment considering how courts have actually considered the legislation, and thrown out many of the cases brought forward under its remit. Watch the far-left nut jobs in the ALP drag Bill to the left on this one, though.

[TV-ACT]

This simplistic nonsense while appealing on a superficial level, doesn’t work in the real world:

@Firetorch

… If you suffer from domestic violence, ring the police. They’re not mindreaders. They don’t find out about murders, assaults, theft or fraud unless they’re tipped off in some way too that something has happened. Basically, strong independent Australian women can, and always will, decide for themselves when they want to report an incident to the Police, and they don’t need left-wing straight/cisgender white men make personal political mileage out of them.

It’s not as simple as what you wrote suggests.
The violence isn’t just against strong independent women, there are people with different personalities and I hope you’re not denegrating the (for lack of a better term immediately coming to mind) weaker personalities, or more vulnerable victims, including children. (I’m not saying you’re blaming victims, but I hope nobody does that.)

Proving offences is a big problem. It’s often difficult to prove what the victim said is true & the perpetrator’s claim of an accident or consent (depending on the assault) is untrue, the onus is on the accuser to prove his/her allegations, I believe the presumption of innocence is a good thing but the system isn’t perfect.

Try to put yourself in the state of mind of a terrorised, traumatised victim having to testify against and possibly being cross examined by your attacker, being called a liar, etc.

I don’t know how to ‘fix’ all of this, but at least let’s not pretend it’s easy or simple.
Some things are obvious, but plenty is much more difficult than may appear at first (and that’s all before we get to well intentioned changes resulting in unintended consequences), so we need to have sensible, thought through policies to try to discourage the view/attidude that violence is acceptable, that might=right, etc., and obviously provide sufficient assistance to victims (rather than the recent budget cuts for shelters/emergency accommodation for those fleeing/wishing to flee domestic violence).

[Firetorch]

@TV-ACT

It’s not as simple as what you wrote suggests.The violence isn’t just against strong independent women, there are people with different personalities and I hope you’re not denegrating the (for lack of a better term immediately coming to mind) weaker personalities, or more vulnerable victims, including children. (I’m not saying you’re blaming victims, but I hope nobody does that.)

What’s a weaker personality? You’re just generalising. No woman is timid and afraid in Australia. There’s no such thing. And whatever you’re trying to refer to, they certainly don’t end up with hardened druggies and wife bashers.

@TV-ACT

Proving offences is a big problem. It’s often difficult to prove what the victim said is true & the perpetrator’s claim of an accident or consent (depending on the assault) is untrue, the onus is on the accuser to prove his/her allegations, I believe the presumption of innocence is a good thing but the system isn’t perfect.

Perfect. Proving offences should be difficult. That’s the system working and what sets us apart from the barbarism that you see in the Middle East.

@TV-ACT

Try to put yourself in the state of mind of a terrorised, traumatised victim having to testify against and possibly being cross examined by your attacker, being called a liar, etc.

We don’t need a surplus of adjectives for the victim. We know they’re a victim, the same way a bashed up grandmother is, or a motorist who suffers from a violent road rage incident, or a mother grieving for her son mowed down on his bike. I put myself in the state of mind of ALL of them, and thus I hate the political mileage being made out of SOME crimes.

@TV-ACT

I don’t know how to ‘fix’ all of this, but at least let’s not pretend it’s easy or simple.Some things are obvious, but plenty is much more difficult than may appear at first (and that’s all before we get to well intentioned changes resulting in unintended consequences), so we need to have sensible, thought through policies to try to discourage the view/attidude that violence is acceptable, that might=right, etc., and obviously provide sufficient assistance to victims (rather than the recent budget cuts for shelters/emergency accommodation for those fleeing/wishing to flee domestic violence).

Sorry? Where is there a view or attitude that bashing someone up, or any sort of violence is acceptable? This is just dated cliche spouting again.

[Firetorch]

Imagine saying ringing the police to literally report a crime doesn’t work.

Jesus Christ.

[turdall]

@Firetorch

Further, I’ve never spent one second thinking about whether my food is halal certified or not. However, the majority of Australians, if they were asked to turn their mind specifically to it, would not accept corporations passing on costs of certification to consumers, for a religious blessing to be given to food. It is so wholely contrary to Australian beliefs. And I don’t see why Australians should be lining the pockets of these certifiers - as exposed by 7:30 last year.

As I said I don’t think it is an issue. But I do know the negatives of it and was waiting for someone to pitch that argument. Although I understand the arguments against I still think it is such a minimal problem and we should be tackling much bigger issues. It is also creating jobs which within Australia.

@Firetorch

It is a totally proportionate and common sense amendment considering how courts have actually considered the legislation, and thrown out many of the cases brought forward under its remit. Watch the far-left nut jobs in the ALP drag Bill to the left on this one, though.

Well that is the issue. If we were to follow the legislation I know about 5 comedians I have seen in the past 6 months that would be facing criminal charges according to the legislation. There is a problem with 18C the question is how do they deal with it? The changes are not major changes and give some freedom of speech which is important in this country. As long as it doesn’t harass a minority it should be fine. It should also not only deal with race but other minorities. Apparently there is no such legislation for the LGBT community. Which is something I also find a bit concerning.

[TV-ACT]

@Firetorch

No woman is timid and afraid in Australia.

How man women do you know? Any who were victims of domestic violence? (Presumably not.)

Sometimes it can take a long time for a victim to get back their strength (mental as much as anything).

Not everyone is the same, and so different people will react differently.
Victims may hide what’s happening to them as they feel ashamed (they shouldn’t but it’s an understandable reaction; e.g. being told they’re rubbish, a failure somehow in their marriage, or feeling stupid for chosing the wrong partner/not seeing/ignoring warning signs of who they really are), and children (with their still developing brains) are especially vulnerable, sometimes they block out the memory of the worst parts or all of the abuse (later having flashbacks and suffering post-traumatic stress disorder).
Victims can be made to feel they must’ve done something wrong to deserve the violence inflicted on them (perpetrators have been known to do so to excuse their actions).

@Firetorch

…they certainly don’t end up with hardened druggies and wife bashers.
… We know they’re a victim, the same way a bashed up grandmother is…

So you think that all violence in homes are from that stereotype, that there’s none behind the scenes which people don’t see & don’t realise is going on? Not all abuse is the cliched obvious black eye, etc.
You make it sounds as if no upper class children have been beaten and raped in their own homes?
It’s a horrible fact that there are sociopaths & pedophiles out there who are in well respected jobs, have married and have their own little victims to abuse & trade.
Plus in decades past it’s been worse; victims routinely haven’t been believed, have instead been punished, returned to abusers (look at the coverups of children being raped by priests as an example).
This is a factor in youth suicide.

I understand it’s not easy to leave an abusive home if you have nowhere to go (not everyone has family near, etc. Imagine a mother’s choice to go onto the street with her children). This is not new; this is what victims and support workers have been saying for a long time.

The world has a lot of ugliness in it; I hate that, but ignoring it/wishing it wasn’t so doesn’t make it better (if anything maybe it makes it worse).

Perhaps you should do some research on this awful topic before suggesting it’s as simple as call the police, and rejecting any suggestion of these awful crimes being kept hidden behind closed curtains & a pleasant facade of normal home life (which is what your statement that there are no ‘weak’ women suggests to me).

PS: This is a bit depressing & off topic for this thread (except for my earlier post’s mention of budget cuts & policy) so I’ll be happy to end the discussion of this subject here.

[pelican]

@Firetorch

No woman is timid and afraid in Australia.

Have you ever heard of Battered Wife Syndrome? Go read about it and you’ll see why this issue is immensely difficult, especially for women who are in a vulnerable situation.

Put yourself in the shoes of a mother who cops abuse from a husband but puts having a house, income and food on the table for the kids above her own wellbeing. It’s just fucked what happens out there.

But nah, 2.2% of the population who, according to Pauline, could be spreading Shakira Law and undermining western civilisation, is a bigger threat than the domestic violence which is pervasive in our western civilisation.

[pelican]

So… with the result in WA, will Turnbull last the term?

[TFTV]

I wasn’t too confident he would last the term even before this result!
But, recently I’ve been thinking that he may last the term just because of a lack of options to go to!

[JBar]

The Liberal Party would be mad to replace another leader. This result might give him a chance to change direction (yet again) to change his fortunes and the party’s fortunes. He needs to ignore those backbenchers who are trying to take the party in a far right direction and go back to the centre right, where he is more appealing to the middle ground and swinging voters.

[Squee]

Or with the (very) poor PHON result in WA will he call the far-right’s bluff and begin to shift back to the centre?

[Frankie]

1 seat majority, if they topple him, he’d almost certainly resign, Wentworth is safe lib because of Turnbull.

[pelican]

@Squee

will he call the far-right’s bluff and begin to shift back to the centre?

That’s what I was thinking he’ll have to do. Far right will have the wind blown out of its sails and renegades like Christiansen will come groveling back to the centre.

It’s obvious from PHON’s result that the Trump mania most likely won’t have staying power in Australia. I think she’ll do well in Queensland (or maybe not after that GST debacle) but that’s about it. 2019 is a long way off, can’t see her retaining any momentum.

[Firetorch]

The linking of this result with federal politics, in terms of harming Turnbull’s leadership, is way wide of the mark.

I see Shorten is over-egging this in particular, claiming the result shows Western Australians have had enough of Turnbull and penalty rates in particular. That is just so wrong as to be laughable.

Barnett has been on the nose (he was always seen as arrogant in any case) for a few years now - well before even last year’s federal election where Turnbull romped home in WA. This, combined with his intention not to see out a third term, lack of a quality successor, and controversial sale of a public utility, ensured he would be kicked out.

If anything, this result strengthens Turnbull - for too long the media has been overplaying how people are “frustrated/disillusioned” with the major parties and are looking to alternatives like ON. No longer. That narrative died. Turnbull is stronger, if anything, because of that.

In fact, much of the campaign was dominated by the media blabbering on about Pauline Hanson and ON. When Colin Barnett, who is known for his forthrightness, said the only people worried about Pauline in WA were the media, he was right. In fact, much of 7.30s reporting on the election focused on her too. So, this clears the media air for Turnbull federally too. No more Pauline nonsense.

Further, the opinion polls nationally which have lead to questioning of Turnbull were based on high ON and Other votes - these smelt off at the time, probably proved so by the results tonight.

The only clear take away you can get from tonight, in terms of federal politics, is that Pauline Hanson’s broader appeal is limited to her home state, bogan Queensland. And the fact Bill is the most shameless opportunist.

[Firetorch]

As for linking Pauline with Trumpmania, perhaps people should carefully reflect on what the media coverage, compared with the results tonight, tell them.

I’ll put it simply.

Pauline Hanson is not Trump.

Pauline Hanson is a two cent politician; a chip shop owner who has been peddling outright racism for decades. Pauline Hanson has appeal amongst a few bogan Queenslanders.

Donald Trump is one of the most recognisable celebrities in the United States, and has been for decades. He ran for the candidacy of the oldest political party in the United States. He has broad appeal amongst practically the entire of middle America. He wins the support of tertiary educated Americans, and most people who aren’t on welfare.

Basically, Trump supporters are the complete opposite of Hanson supporters.

Maybe if the dopey Australian media stopped parroting lazy lines, trying to link the two, even though Pauline has been around for decades with the same crap-o-rama stilted day to day political engagement, then they might have actually picked up on what happened tonight.

But as Trump and Brexit proved, western media has a tin ear. THEY want to tell you what Hanson, or Trump or Brexit represent - regardless of the reality.